Arithmetic Without Numbers – How LLMs Do Math

(alvaro-videla.com)

85 points | by old_sound 2 days ago

11 comments

  • Npovview 7 hours ago

    Turing Award Winner: Thinking Clearly, Paxos vs Raft, Working With Dijkstra | Leslie Lamport

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U719vQz-WFs

    Leslie Lamport : "I am not smart. I have the gift of abstraction."

    Real mathematics isn't about details. Its about concepts and abstractions and how we compose them (LLMs are good at those aspects).

    • xyzsparetimexyz 56 minutes ago

      > The original dream > A just-in-time compiler for arithmetic

      What is it with LLM writing where it gives a smaller heading just before the main heading? Its nonsensical!

      • stared 5 hours ago

        There is a beautiful MathOverflow thread on how mathematicians imagine concepts, https://mathoverflow.net/questions/38639/thinking-and-explai....

        Very often it involves spatial thinking. Vide one example there:

        > Once I mentioned this phenomenon to Andy Gleason; he immediately responded that when he taught algebra courses, if he was discussing cyclic subgroups of a group, he had a mental image of group elements breaking into a formation organized into circular groups. He said that 'we' never would say anything like that to the students. His words made a vivid picture in my head, because it fit with how I thought about groups. I was reminded of my long struggle as a student, trying to attach meaning to 'group', rather than just a collection of symbols, words, definitions, theorems and proofs that I read in a textbook.

        • 0x59 3 hours ago

          One could use many things to do arithmetic:

          - color wheel

          - oxidation reactions

          - interpretive dance

          - migratory patterns of curlew sandpipers

          Whether one should is another question

          • throw1234567891 29 minutes ago

            “You know how when you see prime numbers, they appear red, but when they're twin primes, they're pink and smell like gasoline?”

          • iammjm 9 hours ago

            Why doesn’t it just call tools such as Mathematica for such operations?

            • ACCount37 6 hours ago

              For the same reason you don't run "4+6" on a calculator.

              External tool call has an overhead. It requires a round trip into an external tool. It requires an LLM to run in agentic autoregression - it can't be used in prefill.

              Which means that having native arithmetic capabilities is useful. Forward pass arithmetics are an LLM version of quick mental math.

              An LLM can read "#define SILLY_TIME_CONST (3*20*60*60*1000)" and have "SILLY_TIME_CONST is 60 h expressed as 216000000 ms" already cached by the end of the line, before it even emits its first token.

              • defrost 9 hours ago

                This is more how an LLM thinks about math internally - an LLM version of drilled tables being used for mental arithmetic "as humans do".

                When humans stall on these tasks, they reach for pen and paper, a slide rule, a calculator, etc.

                Mathematica is overkill for arithmetic, in addition it's licenced and can cost a bit extra.

                If an LLM were to reach for a light cheap arithmetic tool something like bc would be a good first stop - a CLI tool with a language that supports arbitrary precision numbers with interactive execution of statements.

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bc_(programming_language)

                • jampekka 8 hours ago

                  They do. I asked CharGPT for 327 x 48 and it used the "ChatGPT Instruments" calculator.

                  Previously it used to run Python scripts, and may still do for more complex calculations.

                  • steveBK123 2 hours ago

                    What's interesting is that one one hand LLM pumps are claiming a path to AGI.. while on the other hand, they are duct-taping in deterministic plugins for specific prompt types they find it better to offload...

                    In X years is it just going to be a thin OS-like layer where a majority of work is being handled by other "programs".

                    • beernet 2 hours ago

                      > while on the other hand, they are duct-taping in deterministic plugins for specific prompt types they find it better to offload

                      So, in essence, just like human beings?

                      • tzs 1 hour ago

                        That doesn't seem very persuasive. The one example of a non-A GI we have, humans, does the same thing. We've been offloading arithmetic for at least 4000 years.

                        • singpolyma3 2 hours ago

                          > In X years is it just going to be a thin OS-like layer where a majority of work is being handled by other "programs"

                          That is my hopeful ideal

                          • steveBK123 2 hours ago

                            In which case it’s just a neat extension of search

                      • breezybottom 5 hours ago

                        ChatGPT does, and has since 2023

                      • euroderf 10 hours ago

                        The spirit of Rube Goldberg is alive and well.

                        • soupspaces 3 hours ago

                          We evolved to do incremental fixes, not full refactoring

                        • old_sound 2 days ago

                          What happens inside an LLM when it tries to calculate with nothing but matrices.

                          • rubyfan 4 hours ago

                            Why does every exhibit made with AI look the same?

                            • silvestrov 10 hours ago

                              This is a very nice and fresh page layout.

                              • dominotw 4 hours ago

                                i dont like this new trend of generating html with ai to say something. i think some guy from anthropic started this trend .

                                now everything looks the same and i can no longer read on kindle.

                                • singpolyma3 2 hours ago

                                  Everything looked the same before too. One of the same 6 Jekyll temples etc. Fads in design come and go

                                • andrewstuart 8 hours ago

                                  I assumed it wrote Python or some sort of other code.

                                  • singpolyma3 2 hours ago

                                    Usually yes

                                    • mavhc 7 hours ago

                                      writing and calling an entire python setup seems massive overkill, surely just have an internal way of calling a simple calculator function would be millions of times faster

                                      • sebzim4500 2 hours ago

                                        Probably but the cost of running a short lived python interpreter to run "print (100 + 200)" is likely negligable compared to the cost of running the language model itself